Posts by King Solomon

29

STOP MAKING CRAP UP!

by Sheep2slaughter in

jw
friends

i had to start this thread in light of today's watchtower study.

in paragraph 14,15 they mention the grounds for separation.

no scriptures are sighted but i am well aware of the support they usually use.. i am so sick of the watchtower making crap up!

The laws provided in Exodus were based on "eye for an eye" reasoning, meaning that the harm or loss experienced by the victim was to be the loss doled out to the perpetrator in retaliation, as punishment.

HOWEVER, this rule only applied to cases where the victim and perpetrator were of EQUAL STATUS, which in Israelite culture, meant MEN who belonged to one of the 12 Tribes.

The eye of a slave, or the eye of a woman, was NOT VALUED as much as the eye of an Israelite man. This disparity was written into the law, and this is an example that shows the bias for all to see.

If there WERE a concept of equality for everyone in their laws (i.e. if "eye for an eye" applied to ALL humans, Israelite males and slave women alike), then there'd be no need to "tilt" the law in the favor of the slave owner, as it shows: the law would just say, "an eye for an eye", and leave it at that.

31

Pascal's Wager, Best Answer I Have Heard

by Diest in

jw
friends

many of us have heard of pascal's wager.

basically that you can bet on god and receive an infinite reward, or you can bet against him and live an easier life for 80 years.

this guy proves that the wager is really misstated.. .

King Solomon

God, being the epitome of morality and righteousness would say, "Congratulations, you passed the test! We were looking for humans who would not sell out their cognitive faculties in the name of faith, showed a commitment to knowledge and intelligence, and didn't simply following the crowd or go along to get along".

OR,

God would cut the guy off and say, "you're a wordy one, aren't you? Sorry, but we're hiring Injuns, not Chiefs. To Hell you go! NEXT!!"

17

Books or exercises to learn critical thinking

by Captain Obvious in

jw
friends

i was sitting at the meeting this morning (yes, still keeping up appearances), listening to the speaker and trying to understand his lack of logic.

his talk was about education.

he seemed all over the place, not really making proper points.

King Solomon

When in college, I used a textbook called "Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: the Use of Reason in Everyday Life" by Howard Kahane. It is quite excellent, as it used examples from real world, everyday life (eg news reports, TV reports, press conferences with politicians, campaign speeches, ads, etc). Instead of studying classical logic, it was actually practical. I see it's on Amazon, used, starting at $0.01 (it's a college textbook, and used copies or old Editions are basically free, as they're almost worthless to college students who generally want the latest edition, even if the changes are only cosmetic (publishers gotta sell more textbooks)).

The web has MANY excellent resources available: just Google for Logic and Rhetoric. Nice thing there is you get many different approaches, and definitions (there's many ways to label some fallacies, eg "begging the question" goes by many different names).

38

The biggest enemy the Watchtower Corporation faces now is "The Truth"

by Finkelstein in

thats my opinion because the wts really has been preaching false information now for so long about the end times and armageddon soon.. also the doctrine that jesus chirt has taken a position over his earthly and heavenly kingdom in 1914 .... etc.

its been a winfall marketing scheme for such a long time, which now really doesn't have much leg to stand on.. time in conjunction with reality has made the wts's doctrines redundantly weak or useless more or less.. i'm even believing the leaders of the wts are even starting to know this for themselves.. the wts future and its main supporting pieces of literature, the watchtower and awake magazines may eventually be tossed aside.

for some new doctrines as well newly named pieces of literature .

King Solomon

I hear what your saying though KS and for most part I agree but its the core foundational doctrines that I'm assuming will changeas time moves along. Will the WTS stick to its old doctrines in spite for example 100 years has past since 1914 and nothing relevant has happened as the WTS proclaimed it would.????

They've already begun: the pubs are becoming more simplistic, not based on hard-core theology; it's obvious they've done studies of what "sells", so to speak, and have tweaked the format, pix, etc to improve readability and drop the language to that of a 2nd grader.

One must remember that the WTS. has to keep on substantiating and validating themselves as god's solemnly chosen organization .

Having a long stream of failed prophecies going back more than 100 years doesn't exactly help in this regard.

In fact it superposes the perceived notion that the WTS. is a trifle fraud organization thats more concerned about the proliferation and circulation of its published goods.

You're such a cute baby, giving your fellow man more credit than they deserve.... Coochie, coochie, coo....

OK, so how can I saw this without sounding pompous? Probably no way, so I'll just say it:

I've met some of the people in my relatives' congregation, grown up around JWs, and they're not exactly concerned with the lack of logic, the flips in policy, etc. Most are uneducated, many on welfare, and some barely speak the language, etc. A few have mental challenges.

Frankly, if they weren't a JW, they'd have NOTHING. Their membership in JW is NOT holding them back from going to college, pursuing a career, etc, because it's just not going to happen. They are in, and remain in, the JWs for a good reason....

Not ALL are like that, mind you, but enough.

25

What are your thought of the 144k in heaven

by bobld in

a d.o.

said they are watching and directing the preaching work.. i thought it was more like watching who was having sex,(prono perverts).. -also they are useless and are very poor in governing.. -their directing the gb/fds is a farse..

King Solomon

Some questions about the 144,000:

Sorry, but I couldn't make it out of Genesis before I concluded it was all a bunch of hockey-pookey. While I know the general storyline, Revelation was just too bat-guano crazy to take seriously (like a bad acid trip)....

:)

29

STOP MAKING CRAP UP!

by Sheep2slaughter in

jw
friends

i had to start this thread in light of today's watchtower study.

in paragraph 14,15 they mention the grounds for separation.

no scriptures are sighted but i am well aware of the support they usually use.. i am so sick of the watchtower making crap up!

King Solomon

Captain Obvious sed:

Soo biblical morality=knowing exactly how and when to beat your slave/maidservant/wife and how much. Just not with a rod...

No, you can use a rod,but it's better to use a more-modern "rod" that doesn't leave any evidence likely to indicate "extreme abuse" (eg a rubber hose, or even one made of carbon-graphite which is lighter, and won't break).

Amazingly brutal, huh?

Come on, folks, I'm begging someone to PLEASE tell me it doesn't look like the GB based this "new" policy on Exodus 21:20. The GB seems to think Mosaic Law is still the best law, EVER, since Jesus didn't offer any significant policy updates on dealing with spousal abuse while he was here....

47

Was Any Part of it Real?

by Big Tex in

jw
friends

i'm sort of following a stream of consciousness so bear with me.

i was flipping around on tv and ran across an old movie.

a couple had a one night stand and when she realized he had just used her she was shocked and told him he had said he loved her.

King Solomon

One of the prophecies that Jesus actually got RIGHT was where he said he'd turn "brother against brother", which sadly, is true.

If one's own siblings, and even one's parents, will sell out their own offspring and siblings to save their OWN eternal skin, then JWs should be proud for forcing that prophecy to come true. Kudos, fellas! Job WELL DONE!

25

Newbie - Not ex-JW

by cog_survivor in

jw
friends

i've been lurking on the forum for over a year now.

i'm not an ex jw but have some weird connections to the group none the less.. i was raised in the worldwide church of god.

a lot in common with jws.

King Solomon

Welcome aboard!

It's a shame people are attracted to the simplicity of dualistic, binary (true/false) polarizing thinking, when the reality of the World is there ARE more than two alternatives than black and white, but many colors in between.

Your family example depicts WHY even if the JWs were to close up shop tomorrow, there STILL would be people attracted to different religions offering the same seductive message of over-simplification of complex issues, reducing it's members to an "us vs them" mentality (with an in-group, and the rest of the World as the outsiders)....

Anyway, welcome to the World of living color. :)

29

STOP MAKING CRAP UP!

by Sheep2slaughter in

jw
friends

i had to start this thread in light of today's watchtower study.

in paragraph 14,15 they mention the grounds for separation.

no scriptures are sighted but i am well aware of the support they usually use.. i am so sick of the watchtower making crap up!

King Solomon

How silly, with the Society trying to define what level of physical abuse is acceptable, and the level which constitutes "extreme" abuse.

Perhaps the basis of the clarification of policy is NOT unfounded on scripture, and maybe they followed the Bible's approach for disciplining a slave (replacing the word 'husband' for 'man', and the word 'wife' for 'maid-servant'), as found at Exodus 21:20?

21:20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

21:21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

21:26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.

21:27 And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.

So the husband has to be careful NOT to cause the wife to lose an eye or tooth, as the husband then must set the wife free, experiencing economic harm. He also must be careful not to beat the wife to death, for that's considered manslaughter.

However, the law acknowledges that if the wife is beaten and manages to hang on to dear life for a "day or two", then the man must NOT charged with manslaughter, and is off the hook, scot-free, since the husband enjoys the presumption of innocence that the wife MAY have died from NATURAL causes (eg they died of internal bleeding a day or two later: but the beating itself had NOTHING to do with it. Just a coincidence, folks; move along....) Besides, the loss of the wife at the man's own hand is considered punishment enough ("for (the slave) is his, worth $$"). .

So I can see it now: the wife is supposed to jump around to try and align the blows of the husband's rod to knock out a tooth or eye and earn a separation from him, but the husband is trying to land blows on areas that don't leave bruises that confirm any "extreme abuse".

And if the wife IS beaten unconscious, the husband suddenly must administer CPR to at least keep the wife alive for a day or two to avoid manslaughter charges.

So there's your Biblical morality in action, folks. THAT'S LIKELY the scriptural basis used to come up with this policy, defining "extreme abuse" as that which causes the loss of an eye or tooth; only THEN, is the wife "set free" and allowed to get a scriptural divorce. The husband then must experience the economic harm of paying alimony and spousal support, since she is "his money". Lovely, eh?

Anyone who says, "But YHWH is the moral law-giver: we're not required to use man's secular laws" is fooling only themselves.

38

The biggest enemy the Watchtower Corporation faces now is "The Truth"

by Finkelstein in

thats my opinion because the wts really has been preaching false information now for so long about the end times and armageddon soon.. also the doctrine that jesus chirt has taken a position over his earthly and heavenly kingdom in 1914 .... etc.

its been a winfall marketing scheme for such a long time, which now really doesn't have much leg to stand on.. time in conjunction with reality has made the wts's doctrines redundantly weak or useless more or less.. i'm even believing the leaders of the wts are even starting to know this for themselves.. the wts future and its main supporting pieces of literature, the watchtower and awake magazines may eventually be tossed aside.

for some new doctrines as well newly named pieces of literature .

King Solomon

I know everyone here expects them to collapse under the weight of their failed predictions, but hate to tell you all that it's not going to happen: they GREW after the 1975 prediction, as it swelled their ranks! They are SLOWLY shifting their platform away from setting specific dates, and more on preparing for an unset date for Armageddon.

Look at it this way: Jesus and his apostles believed THEY were living in the last days, 2,000 yrs ago! The BIGGEST FAILED PROPHECY OF ALL, the one Jesus Himself predicted, FAILED. Did that stop any of you from getting involved, or your parents?

The fact is, ALL religions show a gradual shift in position, and we're able to look back 150 years and see the shift that says FAKE! However, I KNOW JWs who've seen the same evidence, and it doesn't phase them in the LEAST. Why? One sad element of the human psyche is that most humans will only believe what they WANT to believe: most are not as open-minded as they think. Some MIGHT see the changes, and they WILL lose the few who are able to think. But for every one lost, there's many more who'll fill in the vacancy. Apply, lather, rinse, repeat.

So I wouldn't waste too much energy hoping they all will see "the TRUE light": they probably WON'T, and will die as firmly convinced of "The Truth" as they did back in 1960 (or 1920, or 1890, or).